When the Hiring Decision Is Local but the Risk Is Global | Global Interview Security Summit 2026 | GCC Focus | India Edition

In this session, you will explore why local hiring decisions at Global Capability Centres (GCCs) carry massive global security risks for enterprises. As remote recruitment faces a surge in sophisticated threats like deepfakes, proxy candidates, and live AI cheating, a single fraudulent hire can expose a company's core global infrastructure from day one. The panel examines the true cost of this threat, from devastating timelines and contaminated data to severe reputational damage. They also discuss why overcorrecting with tedious manual checks slows down hiring and drives away top talent. Finally, discover how to fight AI with AI using real-time proctoring agents to secure your pipeline without sacrificing speed. 

Panel details:

Diwakar A (Dassault Systèmes)

Ahmad Maredia (Workday)

Jayas Damodaran (Talview)

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

So, welcome everyone. Uh my name is Jay S and I'm a chief of staff at Talview. I'm working alongside the CEO on multiple new initiatives. This is one of such one such initiative. So our topic today sounds very simple, but it's a hard one to solve. Hiring is local, the risk is global. So let's start with telling all what a GCC is. GCC, a global capability center, is an India office of a large global company. It's not a vendor, it's not a call center, it's part of the core company. India has over 1700 of these centers, and they employ over two million people. And it's one of the fastest growing parts of our economy. Now, there is a bit of risk associated with these GCCs, specifically with respect to hiring, and that's precisely what we're going to be talking about. And you'll be asking, what is that risk, right? A GCC hires a person in India, and once that person is onboarded, he gets the same access to systems, codes, customer data, and a whole lot more, as much as a colleague of the same role sitting in the US or Europe or wherever else the offices of the company may be. So you might again ask, so what is the risk about it? Yes, actually there's no risk. But if this person has come in through fraudulent means, through cheating into the company, then it's a wrong hire. And then it becomes not just a local HR issue. It's not a local HR mistake. It's a security risk for the whole company. That's where we say the decision was local, but the risk is global. And this is what we're going to be discussing today. And uh I have two gentlemen here who are part of the panel. Let me introduce both of them. Uh, Divaka A is part of the global talent acquisition team, and he leads the team in India. Uh, at, of course, Dassault Systems, uh a Paris-based company, and he he heads the hiring process across India, including Bangalore, Gurgan, Pune, and many other cities. I have Ahmad, Ahmad Maredia. He's an enterprise architect at Workday, and he designs hiring solutions and other HR solutions for companies around the globe. Welcome to both of you. Now let's get into the discussion itself. Diwaka, let me start with you. Tell us a little more about TESO as a company and its operations in India as a GCC.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Good morning, uh Jayesh, and thank you so much for this opportunity. And uh good morning to my other panelists, uh you as well. And um Yeah, so it's a very great opportunity to talk about my company where I have present uh for the last nine years as a talent acquisition leader. Russell System uh is a scientific technology company where we combine science, technology, and art. Uh so as you mentioned, we headquartered in France and uh spread it across in uh almost 140 different countries, which uh worldwide spread it across um 160 different offices that we have. And uh we specialized in 3D design, 3D digital mock-ups and product lifecycle management software. So uh I think that's uh predominantly Dassault system, and then um uh I think uh we are a product technology company, we uh directly jumping with the global products, and uh we hired at the large scale for the skilled and specialized tools. That's a uh quick about Dassault systems.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Uh you talked a little about hiring. So can you elaborate a little more about how as a GCC in India, how is the hiring different as compared to probably a regular company in India?

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yeah, it's a hot topic. And um, in regular Indian companies, uh you know, you hire for that company. But uh the role, uh the systems and the data sits in India. Okay, that's a regular uh cycle, but in uh specifically in GCC, you hire in India, but the person works and represents the global parent and the global systems from the uh from the T1 of the onboard. Uh but the the high bar is set by the headquarters. And uh we hire to the global standard, of course, with um with the local uh speed and scale now. That's that's what UCC is all about now.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Interesting. So what you're saying is a person is hired in Bangalore, for example, into the Indian entity, but he is he or she is actually working for the global company, and therefore the access rights, all that would be the same as somebody probably sitting in uh Paris, the headquarters of TASO, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah, of course, you know. Uh the whole point of a GCC is basically uh an engineer who's been hired uh same code, uh probably as you mentioned about Paris and uh uh uh I mean the same unnist will be seeing the same customer data. The access is real and uh uh open access to be given for the cluster. That's how the setup is.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

That's interesting. So uh hiring at this kind of scale and at a speed that's pretty you know um stringent, uh what kind of pressures do you face uh in your job?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Oh that's a very tricky question. And uh uh, you know, in fact, the hiring manager or the hiring team or the business team needs the resource as on yesterday. Uh you know, when we ask when do we need the resource, they say we need the resource as on yesterday. That's how we've been getting. But uh here uh uh demand is very high and timelines are very, very tight. Okay, uh business teams need people ready faster. I think that's where the talent mapping or the talent pipeline kind of projects will really help you out. Uh which means you are you're ready for tomorrow. I mean, how do you collaborate with the business team to understand what skills that are upcoming or what is the potential attribution that we see? I think we generally look forward to that and then uh you build talent already with the talent. And uh, since we hired the large number uh across many roles, like from engineers to architects or uh you know, uh I think uh this same thing is makes very highly faster. And uh of course, uh uh uh you know we have to be careful with the current uh situation about uh fraudness a candidate and getting with a lot of PI or access to the tool.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Got it. Uh okay. Let me bring in Named. No, he's been waiting. Now tell us more about Workday and how it runs the people side of customers' business, which of course includes hiring as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

First of all, thank you so much for having me here. And uh I'm glad to be sharing uh the panel with Devakar. Uh coming back to your question, uh so what is Workday? So Workday is the world's largest cloud-based etc solution, which hires, like you said, the entire hire-to-retire life cycle of an employee for each of our customers. Not only are we a great fit for large enterprises with about 60% of Fortune 500 customers being our clients, but we are also a good fit for mid-to-large Indian organizations with global ambitions or for global organizations with a presence in India, as we allow our customers to bring in standardization across their global operations, while the flexibility of our platform also allows for customers to manage local regulations, culture, and other nuances. For a global company, that means one single trusted system and one single trusted data model to report against across countries, time zones, and teams. That is why GCCs love us, and so do companies that either have operations across different countries or those that aspire to do so as it provides them a stable but flexible platform to grow their business beyond borders. And obviously, the entire journey uh starts from hiring, and we play in that area as well.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Interesting that you say that it's a mix of local cultures and the need of a global company, right? Needs of a global company. And you're probably able to match the two because you understand both the situation, both sides of the scenario. And perhaps that's the reason why a lot of DCCs are looking at Vosday as a solution to their HR activities. Now, so what challenges do we see in terms of hiring at DCCs? You mentioned one of them being, you know, to understand both local flavors as well as the needs of the demands of a global company. But other than that, do you see any other any other challenges today?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

I think uh Devakar covered a lot of the challenges, uh, right. And I think uh the volume and pace of hiring at GCCs does put the recruitment teams under a lot of constant stress, you know, which can eventually lead to unintentional human errors or in some cases even intentional shortcuts. And I want to stress here when I say intentional shortcuts, mostly without any intent of malice, the person taking the shortcuts in most cases thinks that they're benefiting their company by bringing down the overall hiring time. But let's be honest, right? If you take a look at it from 35,000 feet above, all of this is just adding to the risk that we've already discussed so far. And this is not just at GCCs. We see similar patterns in all industries which have a business need to hire fast and at scale. Uh, BFSI, retail, these are two broad industries that come to mind, but there are obviously many more that need to hire fast and at scale, either because they're growing very fast or they're growing fast and also have high attrition rates. You know, BFSI is one sector that comes to mind, but there are others that fall in that bracket as well. The problem with volume-based hiring is that a lot of the process and sometimes the entire process is done via online channels, with no one on the hiring side actually meeting the candidate in person. Given this, as well as the potential of human errors and shortcuts that I spoke about earlier, you're looking at a cauldron of risks that most senior execs today honestly prefer to look away from, you know, because they have other problems to solve for. But that does not take the problem away. Problems still exist.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

But let me just uh quickly look at what are these frauds, what are the types of these frauds that we are seeing today, just for context's sake. So the fraud comes obviously in different forms. We have the deep fake videos, you have stolen or fake identities, your proxy candidates who sit in for the real applicant, you have AI feeding live answers while the you know uh assessment or the interview is going on, and of course, hidden locations using VPNs. All these are just a tip of the iceberg, I would say. There are plenty more. But then most important thing is that this is not something that's going to happen in the future. No, it's happening now, right? And it's happening across the world. For example, let me tell you about an incident in in the US, and it's a globally well-known fact. In in the US, 300 companies, 300 companies, including some Fortune Finder names, hired North Korean operatives by mistake. Hired North Korean operatives by mistake, and they were not real candidates, they're not local candidates either. What happened was the candidates actually used stolen identities, fake documentations, deep fake videos, all that to pass those interviews and get admitted, get employed with those companies. And then what happens? Once they are inside the company, they have access to the entire system, they have access to everything with the sensitive, sensitive data, technology, secrets, all those things, right? And they earned a lot of money, which actually went back to Korea to hire to sorry, to fund a banned weapons program. Interesting, right? But this is what the enormity of the problem is. And these companies did the standard checks, right? But the standard checks are not sufficient enough, apparently. Now think of it from an India perspective. We are practically the back office of most of the world, right? The same fraud can happen here in GCCs. I'm not saying I'm saying that your company or uh some of the company that you're talking to, Ahmad would happen, but there is a good possibility that this can happen, happening here in India. And the problem is that it is the same as it happening elsewhere in the world, right? Because India is opening up its doors as GCCs, they are exactly the same company that runs elsewhere in the world. So the risk is higher, and therefore the amount of precaution that we need to take, the amount of work that we need to take to ensure that this doesn't happen, is the responsibility of the local GCC managers, the GCC talent acquisition heads. You agree, right? In your company, you had these situations, so you took sufficient care to make sure that, and sufficient process changes to make sure that these are not going to happen. Uh now let's look at the cost that's getting associated because of a wrong hire. Because it's extremely important, right? Because somebody who's not supposed to be here in the company is now here without others knowing that that person is not to be here, right? So, what is the cost associated? Can you talk a little more about it, uh, Devaka?

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Yeah, um, uh yeah, to continue what I said uh to uh answering your previous question, right? It is all boiled down to the cost of the hire. Uh one uh while quality of hire is one of the very important and of course we have to be looking at the cost of hire. So I mean these days any uh services or a product company uh to get a hunt for a very good talent, uh you know, it takes minimum two, three months time. And then of course, uh, you know, they may have to wait for two or two, three months, more months to onboard the resource, which it will take around after easily six months uh times to close or onboard the resource to run organization. And uh yeah, I mean, of course, I spoke about three months um approbation period, and then you may have to wait, you may have to do some certification initially, you'll not get into the project, or uh scale will get into the certification training, such kind of thing. Now, where I'm coming from after nine months of duration, you'll actually come to know this is not the right resource that whom I interviewer or this is not the right resource project that we need. So this is costing one year, one good year, which means uh it's a direct cost involved. The time lost of uh the entire hiring team, business team, onboarding team, probably the career and perform team. And uh I mean, these days, uh, as I mentioned, you previously I answered about uh uh the hiring or the business team needs the resource as the next stage. Um when we are in that kind of situation, uh loss of one year, uh it's at a very high uh I think you have our global services role uh we relevant, uh, where we will have to introduce. Sometimes you will able to introduce the resource much before the person joins. Uh, the customer is paying for that particular project, and they found okay, customer find out. That's the last thing that we wanted. Of course, it boils down to losing the bidding revenue, and of course, very important is the customer trust. So there is an entire team cost, wrong high, slow, the team puts the manager in the damage control and kind of drags everyone's output, uh Jay.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Yeah, it's a huge cost that the company is incurring. And you also need to look at the next person who is coming in, right? The entire process has to start all over again, the cost starts once more. And like you rightly said, if it's a billable resource, it's revenue. The company is actually losing revenue. Okay, uh, let's move on. Uh, I'm at Diwakad spoke about cost in dollar terms, I'm sure. But you see the this situation from a different perspective, from a hire to retire kind of perspective, right? So when a fraud hire gets in, the damage does not stop at the gate. So, what else does it happen? How does it impact the company in other ways?

SPEAKER_01 17:16

See, the risk is real and deep, but I don't think there's any debate about that. Uh, first of all, you've opened up access to your company's internal assets to the miscreant, right? To the fraudulent candidate. Over and above the financial losses and lost time that Devakar spoke about, there are other softer areas that I want to touch upon uh that we often disregard uh but have real impact. Uh, one is reputational loss, right? Uh for you as a company. Devakar spoke about uh the fact that eventually their customers also come to know that they've had to replace that candidate with uh another candidate. So they've lost a time, they've lost money. And that eventually, if there's a repeated instances of this happening, it leads to reputational loss. You also have to realize a much softer psychological impact to existing employees. Right? And these are, I think, two areas that not a lot of focus is given to, but I just wanted to highlight it. Secondly, because data is extremely important to me, uh, you know, as a tech person, I think it needs to be kept as sacrosanct as possible. And something like this contaminates the data and the process. Let me talk about the process first, and then I'll come back to the data aspect of it. Uh, you know, so the examples that Devakar was giving, you know, a lot of companies that I work with, they have all experienced some type of fraud, right? And in some cases, uh, you know, the impact may be small, in some cases, the impact is much larger than what is being discussed over here. But every single company that experiences hiring fraud, okay, always reacts by overcorrecting and adding additional checks and balances and additional steps to their hiring process, right? Every single I have never come across a company that has run into a situation and hasn't overcorrected. Now, the problem with this is this has a multiplier effect. It obviously, the obvious thing is it slows down the hiring process, right? Your time to hire goes down because you have additional steps, you have too many steps that you've added. But you are also driving away top talent who probably gets a faster offer from another company who's competing for the same resource, right? Because you can be sure that the candidate is definitely interviewing with multiple companies simultaneously. You are not the only one he's talking to, he or she is talking to. Right. And the longer and slower process that you have now moved to, right, is definitely putting it you at a disadvantage. And you should also pay attention to things like word of mouth. You know, younger candidates share a lot of their experiences online. And we all know that there are dedicated websites to share your interview experiences and things like that, right? And as word spreads that your process is very long, very convoluted, a lot of top talent will stay away. And only those who aren't getting any offers at other places will apply, leading to an anti-evolutionary scenario of adverse selection where you're actually getting, you know, instead of the cream talent, you're actually getting the bottom-rung talent. That's the only type of talent in your pipeline. Right. So these are you know challenges that process or changing your process can lead to. And then coming back to data, one fraudulent hire will actually multiply the data entry will multiply across systems and analytics. Right. And I can talk about this all day, but you know, keeping time uh into consideration. Let me just give quick one quick example. You know, it makes the analytics unreliable. You know, even simple metrics like quality of hire by source, you know, because Devakar spoke about the fact that they do take into consideration the quality of the performance of the candidate. I'm sure they also take into consideration the source, right? Because you need to aggregate all of that data. So something like that becomes unreliable, leading your organizations to start taking wrong hiring decisions, going to different sources, right? And then workforce planning becomes a guesswork when your records become dirty. And all of this can start a vicious downward spiral that you definitely want to stay away from. So, like you know, uh I've heard one bad hire can cost a risk, become a cost and risk multiplier across your entire business.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

So, Ahmed, uh, we've seen that the interview integrity and the fraud is a big challenge for us here, not just uh in the GCCs, but across other sectors as well. And it is getting more critical by the day. How does workday meet this challenge of fraud and interview integrity for its customers?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

So, Workday is strongest at helping you manage your recruitment pipeline from sourcing to moving it forward, managing it, moving it forward, and eventually, you know, helping you grow your talent across the entire journey. And ensuring that it is always done in a consistent and compliant manner. We can also help with improving the productivity of hiring teams by automating repetitive tasks, uh, right, the recruitment agent that I spoke about earlier, and ensuring that you know your checks and balances, your document verification, all of that can be automated. But checking whether the candidate is a real person in the real world is a completely entire, completely different thing, right? And uh because of that, we've chosen a specialist partner for it, right? This is why Workday and Talview signed a workday innovation partnership to bridge this gap and make sure that only the right and real candidates enter your uh recruitment pipeline. So Workday brings the right people to the gate. And I see Talview as a ticket checker, right, who ensures that only the right candidates or the valid candidates walk through into your talent pipeline.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Thanks. Thanks for mentioning that. Yes, uh we are today being enrolled as uh innovation partner by workday. And one of the reasons is exactly this that workday realized that we had a solution for this challenge in a fairly decent way. So let's move on. Um before we close, I had a couple of questions to both of you. Now, a lot of GCC leaders are listening to us. If one of them actually comes back, comes up and says, We know that this is a matter of worry, but how much of a worry is it? Is it a little bit of a worry? Is it quite a bit of worry? Or is it or is it seriously a worrying situation that we are in? A question to both of you, so who wants to go first?

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Umad, is it okay if I take? Sure, yes, please. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it is a very interesting question. In fact, that's the question uh any business leader has been uh asking us as well. Um yeah, see if you ask this question, there is uh previous before uh I would have probably or even Ahmad would have answered it, could be a bit worried. Uh, but the current uh situation it's it's it's it's seriously worried. Okay, uh, because the reason is uh any GCC uh makes a very high value IPN sensitive data because that's where the capability center is in India. The prime I probably target is to highly uh you know mitigate or uh or sophisticate these camps actually. Now in this world, uh uh you know, with the corporate identity theft that we have, and then of course, uh and then AI-driven interview fraud that we spoke about, or it could be a credibility, so on. Um I think all this are uh you know uh are getting involved or getting probably resulted in a very seriously uh worried uh situation now. Okay, and uh I think the this is becoming a very serious issue for the marriages. Um seriously worried issue, worrying issue. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Yeah, Amarat, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 25:39

I think my answer is pretty much the same as uh Devakar's, right? Uh three years ago, if you would have asked me, I would have said, I'm a little bit worried, the problem exists, uh, it's an issue, uh, but not something that would keep uh you know organizations awake at night. But now with the advent of AI and this era where you know making fraudulent things or where fraud is so easy and to conjure up and scam people is so easy, I am honestly seriously worried. Uh because of non-disclosures, uh, I can't share stories, but some of the stories that I've heard from some of our customers, right, honestly would keep a lot of risk officers awake at night and uh uh can't share those on open platforms and public platforms because of risk of non-disclosure agreements that we have with a lot of our customers. Uh but my message to anyone hiring at scale and doing online hiring, right? I think treat this as a real risk, uh, a real massive risk, not a small risk anymore. That's all that I have to say.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

I completely agree with both your sentiments. It is a seriously worrying issue, and everyone who's looking at recruitment, they should be completely aware of it and finding out how can they take care of this for their organization. So we would like to close now, but any thoughts from you? Just a quick one minute. I think we've covered a lot of uh aspects. I don't know anything to add. Divakar, anything you want to say?

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yes, Josh. In fact, uh we covered and uh yeah, we discussed uh a lot of things, but uh I I think uh we are smart enough for the current situation uh with uh things which is moving across and we know the problem statement. Uh uh this is not the time to talk talk about the problem statement. It is uh how do we uh give our permanent solutions to uh the today's uh technology world? I think uh uh we need to all uh work towards that direction. I think uh that's what I would give a key message here to process. Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

I just have one more thing. I just had one more thing to add to what Davakar said. I I think uh you know his point about you know being taking action and not worry, right? I I think uh it's a it's going to be a cat and mouse game going forward, especially with AI in the picture. And uh organizations will have to keep improving their risk mitigation measures. And uh believe me, fraudulent candidates will come up with new ideas, and we will have to come up with new solutions to figure out those. So it's going to be a constant cat and mouse game, at least for the foreseeable future, is the way I look at it.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

Great. I think talking about new ideas, I just want to take a minute more on that. Uh, you heard of Sybil scores, right? We all use Sybil scores, and banks use that to give loans to consumers, uh, consumer product companies, give EMIs based on Sybil scores. Now, what if we had something on the same lines for candidates, a trust rating that actually follows them? Wouldn't that be a huge deterrent for them from not getting into this? So, however much we try to block this, uh identify the problems, all that is great. But suppose we are able to nip it in the bud, so to say, so that more and more people just stay away from doing something like this. Wouldn't that be a great idea? Just because you spoke about new ideas, I thought I should bring this in. What do you think? Amel.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Uh I think it's a pretty interesting concept, and I can definitely see how it can be a powerful gatekeeper. Uh, it can help mitigate risk. It won't completely take the risk away, but it'll actually at the top of your pipeline it can mitigate uh some of the risk. And I'm definitely looking forward to see how it shapes up. Not only from a risk angle, which is obviously important, I think that's probably what you're trying to solve for, but uh, you know, I think it'll also make the candidate experience better for honest candidates because now they are not uh, you know, competing for the same job in a mixed pool of fraudulent and honest candidates. They're only now competing for uh, you know, so basically I think it makes their candidate experience better as well. Uh I I I think it's pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Uh what do you think? Divakar, any ideas on that?

SPEAKER_00 30:16

No, it's a very interesting question and then uh very rightly answered. Uh I never thought from the angle that you got in about about Sigin School. It's not only about uh, you know, probably identifying the fake candidates or whatever it might be. Skibble school should also um add a candidate who's backed out at the final stage, accepted offer, wait 90 days wait for an organization and so on. And then it's a complete package. Uh oh. Uh I I think uh uh I mean I think if if this is uh idea which uh uh any good idea, I I feel it is an execution. I mean if it gets executed, it would definitely change uh perspective of a candidate, and that would change the behavior and uh the ethics, whatever we are talking about in this whole conversation, right? That would pass on, and then probably cheating once would follow you out every future application, right? And then it definitely few are under mess upon also.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Yeah, great. I mean, I thought you added some more uh variations to it, some more elements that could be brought in, like somebody who's accepted an offer and not joining, you know, those are smaller things, but still adds minus brownie points to the whole thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:34

I think the idea has immense potential, I think. And you know, I spoke about risk and candidate experience, but with Devaka's additions, I think it can be a great uh value to the companies as well. You know, because if you are now uh, you know, keeping a history of where offers were accepted and the person didn't show up or didn't join, and if this history follows them for life, believe me, candidate behaviors will change, right? And while we're talking about a lot of all these uh fraudulent issues, even honest candidates, they may not be fraudulent, they may not be this thing, right? But that the last minute, if they don't show up, that itself is also another cost to the company and your time to hire metrics and are all over the place. Uh, I just think that this idea has immense potential. Uh, I think you can take both of us as consultants and you know we can uh take this forward. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

We'll definitely come back to you on that. Yes, uh, we are working on this, and uh, I'm sure we'll uh you know come out with more concrete uh information about this. So I think we've exceeded the time a bit. So let us close. Uh so we all agree that there is risk, and this risk is real, it is here and now, and it is global, right? But the good good news is that the answers to are there to some extent. It's not like completely done, but yes, some answers are there, and and these are quite uh effective answers that we can do and execute today. Talvi has a solution, and like uh Hamad said uh previously, you need to fight AI with AI, right? If you have a problem uh with frauds being conducted using AI, we have to have AI to fight that, which is what we've done. So we have a proctoring solution called Alvi. It's a patented uh product, it's a it's an agent which watches the interviews live, it catches the deep fakes, it catches the proxies and even the fake identities. It can actually kill those uh systems that are actually giving answers online effectively, uh, you know, putting a stop to fraud in a large way. Of course, nothing is 100%. And every time you need to be, you know, uh ahead of the curve because the fraud, fraudulent people are also looking at these challenges and trying to be one step ahead. We need to be one step ahead. But yes, uh, we have a solution that we can provide and make sure that the person who joins you, joins the company on the day of joining, is the right person, and he's the same person who was interviewed and evaluated. Thank you very much, Devakur. Thank you so much, uh Ahmad. It was a great pleasure. The discussion was extremely good, and I really want to thank you for that. And everyone who's listening in, thank you so much. You've been excellent uh listeners, I'm sure. And I hope there was some value that we could add to you. Thank you very much and have a good day. Thank you, thank you so much, uh Ahmad.